916. - Melissa Auf der Maur

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it 3 times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. Hello and welcome to a very, very rare Monday afternoon recording. It is your co-host Chris Black here. It's the first spring day in New York. It is feral out there. People are eating in the streets, they're drinking in the streets, they're walking fast, they're walking slow, they're taking it all in. There's shirtless guys in the park, there's old Asian people playing ping pong. It's kind of the grab bag of what New York has to offer when the weather reaches this kind of temperature, Jason.

Okay. Do you think spring has officially sprung or is this just a little cock tease before we get another dump on you?

Based on my experiences as a resident and current weather patterns and global warming, I'm going to say that this is merely a tease, a tickle, and that Old Man Winter will return in some way, shape, or form before it's all said and done and Mr. Sunshine can show us a smile.

Fabulous, Chris. I'm happy for you. Yeah, I'm also happy for you. Just want to congratulate you on the Dakota Johnson Calvin Klein ad dropping today. I was a big, big for you.

Yeah, it was just big in my household.

And also thank you to Alex for making that happen.

Yeah, she had, she had a lot to do with that. I just, look, Dakota Johnson has become sort of the, the hottest chick in the game and no one seems to be, it seems to be universally accepted. Would you agree with that?

Are you saying she's giving vava voom?

I'm just saying that it feels like something happened where now she's just sort of like putting it out there and everybody likes it. I don't hear anybody being like, nah, I don't, you know, you know, it seems pretty women and men alike, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, I guess I'm trying to think of who else because, you know, there's, there's other hotties that were sort of battling it out.

Margot Robbie.

Yeah, Robbie's popping off, but you know, she represents a blonde contingency. You know, Ana de Armas, she still, you know, is not really an actor, so you know, she's not really working a lot.

And you know, Ana de Armas, people don't know who that is. Like, there are people, you know what I'm gonna say, you could show a picture of her and people be like, I don't know, she work at Lovely Day, I don't know who that is. Like, I don't—

well, I'm— we're talking— I guess I'm talking about people that could be considered, you know, an A-list celebrity. Sure, she's dating Tom Cruise, you know, she's a very big movie star, but I think that's—

I think that's over. But yes, in theory, she's famous.

Oh really? Is that tea or is this—

well, no, I think it's pretty— I mean, I think it's confirmed. I think he's just back to being secretly gay again.

You tea dropping? You plopping that little bag in my wah-wah?

No, I think— I think it's pretty— I, I just— I'm trying to think of— because I don't consider her to be A-list.

Now, Sydney's— everyone is like, kind of, we're done with Sydney Sweeney, especially after the Siren launch. Speak for— speak for yourself.

When I was at church yesterday. All the guys were talking about it, so I don't know. I don't know what you mean, but yeah, church meaning— I did—

are we talking Equinox or just a literal Baptist church?

Baptist church. I think that's— she's appealing to a demographic that may not be exactly our own. But I did hear from, uh, an unnamed source that after that, um, uh, chesty Cosmopolitan cover, the Siren sold like a motherfucker. Oh, so it did. I just, you know, magazines still work. Is all I'm trying to say. This is a big up.

A broken bra is right twice is what he's saying. Also, you know, thrown into the ring, not unlike the Dakota coming out of nowhere for actress hotties vying for the number one spot. Zan Hathaway really continues much like a Benjamin Button reverse aging as she's, you know, she's your age. She's what, 43-something?

It's beautiful to see Zan come back from being hated for no reason. To being sort of like, let's put you in magazines and make you look sexy. It's honestly, it warms my heart because as much as I like to make fun of her for being a sort of an annoying thespian, I appreciate that she held it down and just came back. She just weathered the storm. And now, now the world has turned with her. And I appreciate the resolve that she showed.

We cannot help but stan the Zan. Is that what you're saying?

Stan the Zan, baby. You already know.

You already know, but yeah, there's a Dakota Johnson Calvin Klein underwear ad where, as you pointed out, there's, I believe, a reference to the, um, the famous Austin Powers Spy Who Shagged Me scene with Elizabeth Hurley, where they're sort of doing a little playful comedic bit where they, they wake up from having sex in the morning and, you know, he's saying, you know, coffee, and holds up two creamers in, in place of her breasts and You know, there's a lot of physical humor and gags, sort of blocking, revealing anything, the adult, the parts. Yes, yes.

I mean, I would also like to say this is big for the—

it was probably on the mood board over there at Calvin, right?

For the Wired It Girls Instagram account. This is, I mean, this is a shift that we have not seen because it's not— because Dakota's lounging around in her Calvin Klein skivvies having a call with, you know, a producer or director. She's wearing not, not even Apple headphones, but black sort of brandless wired headphones, which I thought was a nice choice.

Obviously, Shorty got the, the Panasonic's on. Shorty got the JBLs.

Shorty got the Amazon Basics on, you know, like I lose these, whatever. Um, yeah, Amazon Basics, no Audrey Herbert. But I think that, um, I think that this is, this is big for, for all of us. And I hope that obviously, I hope the underwear sells, that, that affects my bottom line. Um, but I, yeah, I just, it was a beautiful thing to see on this Monday morning. You know, the sun is out.

As if Calvin Klein needs to sell any more underwear. Here we go. But is there gonna be something for the fellas? Do you have any insider tea I feel like we're doing WWD podcast.

You're saying what? You're saying like another Bad Bunny Hog Out style campaign?

Well, I mean, just, I don't know if these underwear that she's selling are a new innovation or if they're a new product dropping. Is it like the MacBook Neo of drawers? I'm sure. Is it or is it not the MacBook Neo of drawers?

I don't know. I don't have that information. I do feel like it's a new style. Maybe it doesn't seem, it doesn't seem exactly like the classic styles we're all familiar with. I'm not 100% sure.

Okay.

Um, I was— if you couldn't believe it, Jason, I wasn't super focused on the product.

You weren't in—

I wasn't super— I was—

you didn't get a rundown of the, the textile fabric density?

No, I didn't ask. I didn't ask for the breakdown of synthetics versus natural fibers. I was more focused on the acting.

Shorty, what the thread count? Yeah, with the—

I was, I was trying to understand what the story was, you know what I mean? Really unpack the— just kind of what they're trying to do.

You know, women's voices, they're not all— they're not, they're not all loud and easy to comprehend. So sometimes you really got to read between the lines, especially during Women's Day and Month.

It's always Women's Month on How Long Gone though. That's the thing.

Yeah. Let's wake that up, biatch. Yeah. I guess speaking of the MacBook Neo, I know that you're always on the hunt for a new MacBook laptop. You're going to get something like this. You're going to slide in. At first people were saying it's a little, a little, you know, that's a toy, not a tool. It's just some little cheap shit. But During the bench testing, people are saying it's outperforming some, some pretty heavy competition. Okay.

So it's some real computing power. I, you know, I don't care enough. I, you know what it really is, Jason?

Is it too cheap? You know?

No, no, no. I don't think so. I can't buy something that has a name like Neo. I can't. I just can't. It's, it's a, that's a personal thing. Not no shade to R&B singer, multiple wife-haver Neo and no shade to—

No shade to the gaming system Neo Geo.

Exactly.

Nat Geo. All of them.

Isn't there a Neo character that Keanu Reeves played as well?

In The Matrix.

Is that The Matrix? Okay. So, you know, I think neo is a word that we associate with things good and bad, but for some reason I just can't imagine the think tank and the money and time spent on coming up with that name and the ones that were killed and the discussions that were had. And I just— it feels labored over in a way that is unsexy.

Yeah. I mean, you know, neo just means new, I guess, but I'm sure there's some deep Latin. What?

Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, we all knowing what the word means, And then I don't know, it just feels, it just feels unnecessary to me. But I, I'm, I, I love when the Apple Corporation innovates. I think they've only had a few misses in my lifetime. I think the Neo will actually, I think the Neo though will succeed. It's a good idea.

Yeah.

So it's a great idea and a great price point. So I, I think it will probably work.

It's finna succeed. I agree. Um, Amoeba in Los Angeles, Hollywood, famous record store over the years is now being turned. It was, um, One of those like Van Gogh.

Oh yeah, it's the Museum of Ice Cream, but Van Gogh, the one, the one on the one on Sunset Boulevard. Yeah, the original building.

It's being flipped into a bathhouse like a, like a modern—

Good God. Good fucking God. That's worse. That's literally worse than the Museum of Slime. Like that is, that's somehow saunas are not meant for groups. I don't know how many times I don't understand who would want to be in a sauna with a group.

I guess Nordic people.

That's fine if you're— yeah, if you're in Russian— if you're in the countries where the, the sauna culture originated, of course do what they do. That is the right thing. But in Los Angeles, California, do you really— for— I don't know, man. It makes me insane. Like, I— being— the idea of being in a sauna with like 40 singles chatting it up while they have like mezcal margaritas is psycho to me.

Yeah. And I think The, uh, the people doing it are— they might be New York. Yeah, it's a New York-based spa chain.

Of course it is. Of course it is. Which one is it?

Um, I'm— I need to hold on. I need to turn off my ad blocker.

I've been invited to— I've been invited to 14 of these that have opened in the last year, and it's— I just wonder how many can possibly survive because I blame the VCs. You know, they're giving them money, and I, I understand why the idea is appealing because sauna culture is, is popping, but If it was up to me, I'm taking TJ's route. I would rather spend the $5,000 and have that shit in my house or on my fucking balcony in New York City than, than go to one of those 1,000 times.

Yeah, it just doesn't— the world is sort of now really separating into two categories. The, the name of the company is literally just called Bathhouse. They have locations in Williamsburg.

Yeah, that's the biggest.

I think that's Flatiron.

That's the biggest one.

Yeah, but you know, there, there's people who do these tasks, whatever it may be, saunaing, meditating, working out, running, jogging, rock climbing, whatever it is, cooking. And then there's that because it's their safe sort of meditative space to escape the world, clear the head. And then there's some people who I guess more in need or have a difficult time, more difficult time seeking their community or a larger desire to find a community of people in real life.

If by community you mean pussy, then yes, I agree that that is true.

I'm of two minds of it. I don't know if one is necessary, you know, if it's just, I guess the old me would say like, it's the difference between cool people and not cool people. But I think sometimes people might just have like their brain is wired differently and they're just, you know, some animals are more social at the dog park and some hide under the table and it doesn't make one better than the other.

Don't bring dogs into this. This is all bad. This is all bad. Don't make it worse by bringing dogs into it. All right. We have a guest today.

Uh, look, it's just like when you go to the cat cafe and some of the cats come up to you and want pets and some of them, you know, you have to—

we have a guest today, uh, thank God, because otherwise we'd be talking about group saunering for the next 45 minutes. Um, Melissa Auf Du Mar is a musician, um, who has a new memoir coming out, Even the Good Girls Will Cry, which— March 17th, very soon. Um, and I, you know, we— I've— we— this has been one of the, uh, hardest podcasts to schedule. It's like we're trying to get Billie Eilish for 3 and a half hours. Um, but Melissa was in Hole, she was in Smashing Pumpkins, she's a legendary Canadian. Um, and her story is pretty unbelievable. She was around for a lot of things that are, you know, uh, big memories for Jason and I. Uh, and I cannot, I cannot believe she's from Montreal. She's a real survivor for that.

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't know. It has been a tough one to book. She's a hard one to nail down. I didn't know people in, in Hudson Valley, New York were this busy.

I thought you went to Hudson Valley so you could just bake bread and, you know, look good in clogs. But Melissa's proven—

I thought you're supposed to go there to unplug, unwind, get their fast tickets low. I feel like, you know, we're trying to book Bob Iger on the pod, you know, Mark Cuban.

Bob Iger. All right, let's, let's give Melissa a call.

Hopefully they have my glasses on. Is that you, Bobby Iger?

Hopefully they have Wi-Fi up there in Hudson.

She had to spring for the fiber optic cable installation.

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own, but the truth is no one has all the answers. Well, and no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris. And sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to be in the same room with them, because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself. And that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over 6 million people globally are using it. And, you know, have some breakthroughs. Go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh, you know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, damn, I really am him. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That health.com/howlong.

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, you're fine, you know, drink more water.

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

That's about it.

As if I could drink more water, doctor. I, I don't get data. I don't get a game plan. I just get a pat on the ass and get out there and, and make it better. But Superpower is doing something different. Superpower sends a licensed professional to your home, or you can visit a nearby lab if you're a little freak. It's a simple blood draw, one simple blood draw with over 100 biomarkers, which is way more than what you usually get, and it unlocks a real understanding of your body. Uh, their app includes detailed information on your heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin, mineral levels, and even environmental toxins.

Ooh.

So from disease prevention to treating that annoying brain fog or simple optimizing for your gym game. Let's go. Superpower is the more comprehensive and advanced system out there.

Make this year the year we all stop guessing about our health with Superpower. For a limited time, How Long Gone listeners get $20 off to unlock their new health intelligence. Head over to superpower.com and use the code HOWLONG for $20 off your membership. That is code HOWLONG. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about Superpower. Do us a favor if you could and tell them How Long Gone sent you, and That'll just support us. Thanks.

I'm trying to get— Yeah, I see Pet Shop Boys and maybe more romantic person, and then I'm trying to see what's in the background, like a steel something. Okay.

Those are just medical devices.

It might be my Alessi kettle or maybe my Berkey water filter. There's not much else going on.

Yes, very good. Kettles. I want you to know that I— I've been excited about this because of Jen. Jen was raving about these guys. Can't wait. But I am so brain dead right now. This is my 5th hour talking straight, but I'm so glad that you made me fit me in because I could not.

Well, we were joking earlier. It was like we were trying to book Bob Iger or Billie Eilish with your schedule. I don't know who you think you are, but—

Hilarious. No, no. I mean, mainly I'm a mother of a teenager and I'm I'm sending a huge book to the printers on Friday. My second book comes out.

Oh wow, this is the photo— this is the photo book.

Yeah, and it makes no sense that like the deadline of launching this while I'm deadlining that— that was my problem. But it's more than I'm— you're like my first very grown-up podcast I'm doing other than Billy Corgan, and I do love this format.

Are you telling me that Cat Daddy has a podcast?

It's wrestling-based though, right? So were you able to keep up?

Oh, that is— that is that his character? I don't know his character.

I didn't— does he have a— I didn't know he had a podcast. I'm serious.

Yeah, it's called Magnificent Others.

Oh no. Okay, what are we talking about on that podcast, Melissa?

If you don't want to talk to a lot of cool weirdo people, he's got like a very, uh, very eclectic cast of, um, guests that are magnificent, clearly.

Sure.

But they are— you should— I mean, you should check it out. He's big on TikTok. That's kind of why he, uh— that is fucked up. But it did. But that is how he got big on TikTok was this. And he invited me. He's like, I want to get, you know, want the pumpkin fans to know about your book. I'm like, okay, great. And I had my mentor interview me. Uh, but that being said, I want to be super present with you guys. I just had this like 5-hour back-to-back talk and I wanted to take a moment of silence to set an intention.

Oh, namaste.

For this conversation. Okay.

All right. Let's do it.

Let's do it.

Have we started, by the way? Do you record right away? Yes.

Okay.

So one second. Shh.

Shut the fuck up.

Hard for me. Okay. So who are you? Why am I here?

We've done this. We've done almost 1,000 episodes of this podcast. And I have to say, that's the first time someone set the intention after we started. So I'm impressed. I'm impressed by your commitment.

Yeah, I can't tell if you're frightened to podcast, you don't think it's going to go well and you had to say a prayer, or if you're so confident in your spiritual sonic connection with the world, it's no problem. It's like speeding over a speed bump in a monster truck. Not a problem. And also really quick before we start—

Before we start? I thought we started.

We did start.

Got it.

I just wanted to backpedal because you just said Jen was telling you and you're talking about Jen Vendetti, the casting director that was on— The godmother.

Mother of my daughter. Yes.

Oh wow, you guys are that close.

Okay, so you both chose to live in no man's land, and she chose to be near me after I told her for 10 years, you can still have a life, actually a better life, if you leave New York City.

I don't believe you. Um, but yeah, no, I believe you should move there. I'm saying, I don't know if— I mean, I've visited all these upstate towns that people have romanticized, and they just seem like Brooklyn to me.

Okay, well, you weren't here 18 years ago when I showed up and it was Twin Peaks, okay? I moved here because it was fucked up and weird as shit and to be discovered, and then now everybody fucking— now it's fancification and I can get lattes on every block and it's retarded.

How far is it for— how long would it take you in your Volvo to commute from there to the city?

So the reason I ended up here is it's 4 hours door to door to my mother's house in Montreal, and I fell in love with a guy from Lower Manhattan. And I'm like, no, so it was for geographical reasons.

You're telling me there's a woman that fell in love with a guy from Lower Manhattan? I barely believe that. I've never heard of that in my life. A musician that fell in love with a guy in Lower Manhattan? Uh-uh.

Does that sound stereotypical? Is that what you're saying?

I don't believe that one bit. Okay, so you're from Montreal, which I have to say, um, I hope it's shocking to me. I've, I've lived there. For 3 months during COVID because my wife was living there. And I gotta say, I don't know how you did it. One of my least favorite places on Earth.

Oh my God, I mean, maybe you haven't read my book yet where I give an entire chapter devoted to my city because she's my favorite other parent. She's called— called the city. She raised me.

The book, the book comes out next week, so we haven't had a chance to read it yet, but looking forward.

No one sent us a copy. I don't know what— I don't know how the— I, I would have read your book. I don't read a lot of them because they're bad, but yours— oh my God, that's horrible.

I'm so Sorry, it's okay.

I didn't really ask.

We're, we're a dinky podcast in comparison to the other ones that you're doing, so it makes sense.

Well, just so you know though, the reason why I kept putting you as a priority, Jen, was— but I kept asking, why aren't these guys slotted in yet? Because I hear they're fun to talk to. Was that I had random cool friends in the country mention that they heard Jen on that podcast, or mention someone else. And I'm like, so according to the radar of people that I like and know this is a cool podcast. So that's why I kept asking again, is I heard about it.

We do quite, we do quite well in the— we do quite well on the slightly aging rocker demographic. Okay, that is sort of our— okay, I mean, that's, that's kind of our zone.

We're the elder millennial to Gen X pipeline.

But I hate that you didn't get to read the book, or even— one second, one second, one sec.

Uh-oh, there's a cow coming in or something.

Oh shit, the milk. I thought the milkman was—

oh, you're gonna show us the COVID But second of all, because that amazing city that you didn't hate, you liked it. That was a joke.

Uh, no, no, no, I don't, I don't like it. No, I don't like it.

You don't like it? Was it the French thing or the cold thing?

Yeah, mostly the French thing.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Yeah, it's beautiful. It is beautiful in the summer. It's very special in the summer, I will say.

Good, good. Uh, they used to have good American Apparel stores, good place to get ecstasy. And go ahead.

So you see Act 1, magic.

And okay, and this is— that's Montreal. You're— this is what you're—

well, this is— so for Chapter 1 is my dreamy frontline feminist, best, coolest woman of the counterculture, uh, my mother. Then you go to Chapter 2.

Your mother was a baddie.

Yeah, yeah, hold on.

My cool as shit father Nick. And then you go to Chapter 3. The city, she raised me.

That's so dramatic. I would—

rooftops. And it's the other parent, my mother. This is like my primary parent, the city.

I would have loved if you ended up being like a dentist with parents like that. That would have been, that would have been the real twist.

Yeah. No, I mean, I, I thought I wouldn't ever be able to live up to how cool they were. They were so ahead of their time, so radical, pioneering on every level. And I had to work really hard to have a cool life.

And because Montreal was pretty loose was like pretty cool in that era, I assume.

Counterculture, yeah. And there was a whole other parallel to the race riots of the U.S. was the English-French language wars. That's why when you're in Montreal, it feels—

yeah, yeah, yeah, it's pretty radical.

And my parents were very radical, very politically involved, and my father was in jail many times as an Anglophone fighting for the underdog who were the Francophones. So like, I was raised by all counterculture The underdog should be the winner was like the theme that I was raised.

So how's your French then? Your Québécois?

Oh, I had to go to French school my whole life because my mother was an American. My mother's from Boston who fell in love with Montreal by studying French literature at McGill. And she became like a devout French-Canadian theater— she's the leading translator of French-Canadian theater and she's devoted her life to the French-Canadian story and identity and language. So I went to French school because that's— both parents explained, you're in a French place.

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

I have a follow-up question. If Montreal is so awesome, why don't you live there now?

This is the greatest mystery of my life. I live in conflict. It's true. All right, poor family. Oh, I've been trying to move back since I left in 1994. It's actually mentally deranged. Like it's some crazy problem I have, but it's because I'm a dual citizen and I realize I live in conflict, is I love all the great things of the United States, I love all the great things, and I hate both bad sides of both places. I'm like super privileged that I get to live in both and have both, is the real answer.

It's like, okay, okay, so you go to Montreal a lot, you get your fill is what you're saying?

Oh, exactly. And that's why, because I live 4 hours away and I have a pied-à-terre there. You know what that means?

I do. I do know what that means.

You're living as privileged as one could live in Hudson, New York.

Exactly. Exactly. And then my husband has an off-the-grid— his family has an off-the-grid cabin in Vermont. We're set. I got everything in the Northeast.

You guys sound like fucking truthers. Okay. Do you got a bomb shelter too?

You got everything but sunshine and warmth. Yeah, that sounds awesome.

You ever been to Florida? And running water and electric. I only have electric vehicles. I have no fossil fuels running through anything. Infrastructure, including this big giant reclaimed schoolhouse that I am running my operation out of here. So we believe in electric.

Okay.

We believe that the world is round. And—

All right, that's— we're going to wrap it up then because that's kind of—

okay, well, okay. Speaking on the subject of electric cars, I was listening to a podcast episode you did a couple years ago. It was sort of while you were in the process of writing the book and the Cybertruck had just come out and you were talking very positively about the Cybertruck, about Elon Musk and his engineering fortitude.

So I have a Rivian. Okay. I got a Rivian.

Oh, you're even worse. You're one of the biggest problems out there. I didn't know they let women buy those. Thank God. That makes them cooler than I thought.

Okay. Well, have your thoughts and opinions, not on Elon, because you didn't say like Elon is an awesome guy. Like 2 years ago you were saying he's like a shitty douchey guy, but just from the work he's done for the environment to push human beings forward. His engineering fortitude, you know, all that stuff. Do you still feel that same way about him, or have things changed in these last 2 years?

Well, obviously. Also, my other question to you is, do you love the CEO of Mercedes and Ford?

Hey, this is my— hey, no, no, don't use my argument. This is always my argument with all these fucking losers who think every, every CEO is bad of anything, basically.

Exactly. I mean, so I don't care about the guy. I just And he didn't even invent the technology. He took cool ideas from other people who are super smart. He's got a great crew of engineers. And I still think the net positive of that company— I wish they would remove him from it because he's creating, you know, he's probably ruining part— in fact, there was all of this incredible infrastructure stuff they were supposed to do, and then he lost his mind and invested in other crazy things. And now we don't have—

I know he had a baby, he had a baby with Grimes. He really did invest in crazy stuff. I couldn't agree more.

She and I, she and I share birthdays and we both went to the same art school. We're both born on St. Patrick's Day. We went to Concordia University in the art department. And I actually am a fan of her. Like, my art center had one of her early shows like 15 years ago. She played at my like cool art center. As an artist, I find her very interesting. I'm very upset that she's lost her way. Love can do that though.

Love can create problems. Love can take you to Hudson. Love can take you to fucking—

It's true.

Hanging out with tech people can do that as well. Exactly.

You drive a Rivian though.

Is it the truck? Or the SUV?

Oh, I wish. No, it's the truck, the pickup truck, because we do have a pretty big infrastructure situation. I do have two giant reclaimed buildings that we manage and have restored, and we have creative clientele and big events. So it's more our work truck.

I'm familiar. I'm familiar with the whole thing.

Okay. Because you live—

I live in New York. Yeah, I've never been.

Okay. So you have been to these upstate towns. Exactly.

So you're hauling giant candles and things around from place to place. Can I book my wedding there?

Or is it shows only?

Yes. Yes. No, it's the guy booked the first wedding and I went to a wedding. I was like barely pregnant and we just started this new crazy idea of this big old factory that was in our backyard. And I went to a wedding conference convention. I don't even know what they were. I didn't have any flyers. I had nothing. And you're doing a round circle of like your venue. And I said, if you want an industrial wedding, call me, ask for my phone number. And I booked the first weddings. That is now pretty huge. We have a very lucrative creative wedding business that supports all of my arty loves for the fact people love to get married upstate.

I know, love it. It's just really— I mean, I, I get it to some extent, but yeah, I mean, weddings are a big business. They— people, you can charge people whatever you want.

Love, love. Yes.

And the parents got bread, love knows no bounds.

Yeah. Whereas I just want to have 24-hour experimental music festivals, and I do do that too, but I hate to be the one to tell you, but those are going to lose money.

Money, you know what I mean? They might break even if you're lucky.

That's what the— that's what the early bookkeepers used to say to me, like, uh, Melissa, if you want to have a freaky community center, you're also going to have to have weddings. I was like, fine. And I went out and I got weddings and I booked them.

I appreciate that you took the bull by the horns and said, you know what, I'll, I'll, I'll pay Peter, I'll rock Peter to pay Paul. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

I have learned a lot about the real world that I did not learn of, uh, while I was a bass player in a rock band in the '90s. I learned learned nothing about the real world back then. And then I like ran for a decade trying to escape the '90s. Get me to where I am outside of the '90s. And then I emerged in Hudson, New York, and I had a baby and I started a factory and I learned real life. And I drive a truck and there's usually garbage in it, to answer your question.

How are you doing with real life though, in general? I mean, is it—

you burn your garbage up there, right?

No way. No, I'm an actual urban girl. I'm actually not rural. The joke is I live in a tiny little city and I live the city life Yes. Yeah. Brooklyn thing. You're saying it's because you weren't up here before it was Brooklyn, but now it's the problem. Yes.

So you just Postmates Cafe Mutton all day and watch Netflix up there?

Wait, did you read The Big Swiss? Have you had that writer on here?

I have read The Big Swiss.

Yeah. I mean, that's all like, that's all post-truth Hudson.

I'm like, but do you miss, do you miss a city setting at all?

No, I have a pretty rich inner world of my, like this book I read.

I can tell you're crazy, but I'm just saying, you mean, you mean that you Actually quite sane compared to all the crazy people I've been around. That's, that's also true. That's also— you're saying you can spend time with yourself.

Yeah, who's the crazy one?

Exactly. I am, uh, I— the only thing I miss about my old life, pre-small town, is I used to play music. Yeah, that's the only thing I really left behind because I chose to not be a nomad freak as a mother. So my transition to small town and also then shifted into becoming a mother, and I wanted to be home. So no, I think that the only thing I miss of like old me is the actual frequency of the bass channeling magic through my body into like a setting with a shared situation, out into the ocean of people who want to watch it and listen to it. That I miss.

Damn, I meant like restaurants and shit, but okay. I see. I was thinking alternate street parking, but you opened up to a whole new—

If you're out there in Hudson in the small town, have you switched to any other musical instruments to try and channel that energy? Are we hitting the didgeridoo? Are we hitting some ambient synthesizers? No.

We're hitting a keyboard.

You got a lot of room for a sitar.

I do. And I don't know. Now I wrote a book and I loved writing more than I could have ever imagined. And that I can do upstate by the fire with my cat on my lap for the rest of my life and it will work out well. It's conducive.

Okay.

It's a great third act to borrow a pun from the writing structure. But when I was listening to that interview with you, you mentioned something that will probably make Chris jealous and many other authors jealous is that you said writing comes very easy to you.

Don't be one of those people.

Because you already know what you want to say and you just have to write it down. And a lot of people, I think they know what they want to say, but they're just not able to harness You know what I mean? And bring it back down into their fingertips.

One of the things, because you haven't written— read my book, and you will know, my— both my parents were masters of the word, and I grew up totally intimidated by my coolest shit masters of the word parents. And that's why music and photography was my thing. Like, I'm not gonna try to do that. And then, but through osmosis— first of all, my father was, uh, the Jimmy Breslin of Montreal, they called him, the unofficial mayor of downtown Montreal, the guy who wrote my entire my entire childhood is narrated by my amazing, charismatic, hilarious beginning, middle, and father. He had such a clear way of understanding humanity, and he was both politically active and fighting for the underdog, but he was trying to represent the people. So when it came to writing this book, it's as if I had, like, in the background, my father wrote my entire childhood. So I kind of, but obviously through the lens of a madman. He's a really wild— dead long ago. The day my book comes out next year— next week is the age that he was when he died. So my father died young and tragic, but was remarkably mother— like, so talented in writing and storytelling was his thing. So I have it in, you know, through osmosis. But I also, um, knowing that I was witnessing chaotic history in the making on this, like, '90s rock saga, Vikings mythology, crazy. I mean, the Kurt and Courtney thing, the whole thing I was stepping into was so ridiculously big and complex and everyone and their mother was somehow like affected by like Kurt's death or something. And then the bass player dies and I have to replace her and all this drama. I photographed every day and wrote in my diary every day. And in my book, I'm very, very clear about the amount of writing and documenting I did at the time, and many people who have read the book, which you haven't, is—

Stop hammering that in, please.

Sorry, but it's making the interview different because I'm trying to fill in some blanks for you. But, um, is that everyone assumes that I used my diaries and all my photos to tell this book. I wrote this all from memory, and the details, every single thing came coming back like a weird waterfall download. And I think it's because I photographed and wrote about it so much. I was like marking, like I burned it into my brain. And then compounded with the fact that I went running and screaming from the '90s, tried to avoid almost all thinking of it, tried to define myself outside of it, and I needed so badly to purge it that like it was a necessity. I was like, get it the fuck out of me so I can move on. Like, I have to move on from the story. I do not want to live like, oh, like, strange.

So you couldn't type fast enough?

I literally could not type fast enough. It was like, get the fuck out, get it out!

It reminds me of when, when like a radio station goes in, you're locked in a tube and they just released $10,000 and you gotta grab it. Those are just chapters.

Exactly.

And everyone is watching from the outside, like, exactly, interior.

It was a necessity. I don't know how my next book will be, and I hope to write one, but I had to. I had like, I had 200 this is already too long, just so you know. It was 100 pages more than they wanted. It was— I had to cut 200 pages to get it to this. It was an abnormal amount of information. I had to cut Jeff Buckley out. I had to cut Evan Dando out. I had to cut all these things and these exciting stories out because I needed to support the very complex—

All right, well, look, you can tell— why don't you tell those stories to us then? We can start with Jeff. We can start with Jeff Buckley, and then we'll move on to Dando. And if you have anything else that you want to share, we're— it's an open forum for you here.

Here since you're able to just channel this information through the gods and the DNA of your father's storytelling. And speaking of that, how do you say nepo baby in Quebecois?

I don't know, there is no word for that in Quebecois, but that's a good question.

Um, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down on the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast 3 times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

3 times a week. And I, I have a feeling, just based on the platform and these talking points, that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, uh, Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcast. You can watch on YouTube. It's 3 times a week. And, and who couldn't use more news, you know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it, give it a listen. Give it a listen. Your summer starts now with Memorial Day deals at The Home Depot. It's time to fire up summer cookouts with the Nexgrill 4-burner gas grill on special buy for only $199. And entertain all season with the Hampton Bay Westgrove 7-piece outdoor dining set for only $499. This Memorial Day, get low prices guaranteed at The Home Depot. While supplies last. Pricing valid May 14th through May 27th. US only. Exclusions apply. See homedepot.com/pricematch for details.

I've never thought of it that way other than, yes, I have extraordinary parents that made it very hard.

No, we talk about people that have cool parents all the time.

It's a real—

it's a different way of being brought up, you know. And it's not— I think it's very different than people being rich. Um, I would say you're right, maybe. I think I would say it's depending on how you handle it, better, you know what I mean? Because if you're able to harness it in some way, I think it's probably— I think the— that a lot of people getting that kind of money fucks them up.

Oh, getting the money is the worst. Most people I know who come from money are super fucked up. But put it this way, my mother is 83 years old, still living cultural relevant life. She was in Paris all of last summer being a dramaturg for a very important giant theater production starring Juliette Binoche, having dinner at midnight with all the actors at 83. And all the things that my mother did not give me when I was a child, which there are, and they're in the book, and I love my mother. I will take cool role model with clear call of what she needs to do in this lifetime over anything I didn't get from her as an emotional— you know, like, she is a kind person, but she was a single mother. My father came in later. I was like totally on my own, pretty much, which is also helpful.

But hold on, did Mom learn anything in this book maybe you didn't want her to learn?

I mean, yes, there is some stuff. And she's really— the, you know, the New York Times came up last year. She's— last week, she's really upset about the fact that yet my opening line of my book is, I am a product of a one-night stand between two radically beautiful and adventurous souls who, in their fearless independence, came together for a romantic weekend.

So you're basically— your mom's like, you're slut-shaming me in the first sentence of your book.

So apparently her weird friends— I'm like, this is a true story, this is a true story. I did not make this up.

Like, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?

New York Times, I got all these emails of, "You must be so proud and mortified," because the New York Times refers to it as that. And I had a big reckoning with her this week of, listen, I actually have to come to terms with how I am a product, literally, of two people who are not in love, who did not try to have me. It's cool that you decided to have me. This is— but I have to live with the fact that I don't come from—

it's your story to tell.

And it's my story.

I mean more, not the shade you throw to your mom, I mean more of the stuff, you know what I'm saying?

No, my mother— my God, my mother literally was Frank Zappa's girlfriend. She had sex with every— she was the first female disc jockey on the Montreal Airways.

Oh, so you're saying your mom was— oh, okay, so your mom was meeting the rockers.

She—

that's why I got into rock music.

You were slut-shaming her because she deserved it, is what you're saying.

No, you are bad. You two are bad. Because by the way, one-night stands are a thing of empowerment, and they are beautiful, and they are free, and all that.

But what's the word?

Slut. We don't need to, even though Courtney used to write that on her stomach all the time as a— you guys using it.

We would never say the word slut on this podcast unless it was in the shaming context. We would never—

would you give a— do you have an example of a word to use that would be— make you happier than, than the word slut?

Oh, sexual freedom.

Like, okay, we're going back to the '60s, free love.

All right, I'm more, I'm more bohemian than I am like '90s. I'm much more like turn of the last century. Yeah, you're a Victorian mama, you know, 1920s. I'm not like— I'm from another time. I'm not really '90s-like. I'm actually out of step with that time, which is why I think I have a cool lens.

Well, revisiting— so revisiting all of this after trying to, you know, leave it behind, what was the— what was the reason? I mean, obviously it's nice to get paid and do it and all that stuff, but I don't do anything for money.

Wait till you read my book. I literally run from money and success. I was asked to join Hole and I said no thank you.

No, I know that, but I'm saying that was a long time ago. Now you responsibility.

No, I'm still— I mean, the only compromise I made was weddings. I do not compromise my creative self for money and success. Zero.

Must be nice. All we do is compromise over here at How Long Gone. What do you want us to— what do you want us to shill? We'll do it.

Um, do you have cool sponsors that you do have to shill? Is that what you do?

Yeah, I love Better— I love BetterHelp, Melissa. Nothing is better than texting your therapist.

Is that a moto yoga—

yeah, well, actually, this is my friend. I'm not sponsored. They're actually a defunct yoga company, but it's my friend's company, and she's a musician.

They close?

They actually had to change their name. It's like a branding thing. I don't know.

Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't realize that.

Okay, there's one in LA.

There's one in Brooklyn too. Yeah, it's the same.

It's the same.

And my friend Becky, she's a yoga mogul, but she's actually an avant-garde musician from Montreal, and I'm proud of her because she came out as an avant-garde musician and made like a big yoga industry, which I'm super impressed with.

Okay.

Um, but, um, do you ever interview yoga No. Who do you interview, actually?

We talk to all kinds of people. A lot of musicians, a lot of writers, all kinds of women.

We talk to them all the time. But yeah, mostly women. Musicians, writers, comedians, old gay guys. The list goes on. Just any type of people of note of culture. Some of them we're interested in personally, some of them we get pitched and it's an awesome random thing.

Okay.

But yeah, we talk to anyone and everyone. Everyone.

And then you, you didn't— you're not talking to me because Jen told you, because you had already heard of my book.

And I feel like we've been trying to do this for a while, and it—

okay, okay.

And it just, you know, some things take— I mean, not, not this, but some things take years, literally. Like, you know, I was trying to talk to fucking Richard Ashcroft since we started the podcast, and it finally happened.

You know what I mean?

Things sort of take—

did you talk to him? Yeah, it's sweet.

Yeah, he was great.

Yeah, I've actually a good Rick— Richard Ashcroft. Did I even— I cut— I definitely cut that, but I didn't even write it to begin with. But when that That song came out and they were— there was that such a special, like, parting of the clouds with them arriving. I was like at a— do you know Tom and Jerry's on House? Of course.

So I've done coke at Tom and Jerry's.

Okay. I, I, I've gotten into really politically incorrect arguments with the, uh, Irish bartender there because I'm born on St. Patrick's Day and he gave me way too much tequila and I just put my foot in my mouth.

The, the most important drink of Irland, the tequila.

But I have an amazing moment where the one of the MTV, like, whatever, like there was all these MTV characters in the '90s, you know, the one who got the video to the people who put Nirvana's video, like, so all these MTV, you know, young, they were the equivalent of A&R people but MTV were in our midst. And I'd become friends with one of them, Amy, because most of our crew lived in LA but I lived in the East Village. I was trying like to get— I went from Montreal to East Village and I was forced to move to LA, which was very hard for me to do. But I lived next to the Cherry Tavern for a while, my first years of Hole. And, uh, Symphony— Bittersweet Symphony.

Oh, that's why the national anthem of England, you may know.

This is so ridiculous. This is why I got myself in trouble, is that song got— came on at Tom and Jerry's and I started telling him this story about in 1995 or whatever year that was when this song came out, the MTV people called me and asked me to come host The Verve at Tom and Jerry's. And so I went, I went walking from my place to go meet these cool, new, wonderful, talented musicians from England. And I was wearing these really insane vintage platform boots, and it was like torrential rain out. And I walk into Tom and Jerry's as long as I— very rare for me to be ever embarrassed. Like, I am an embarrassing person. Like, my, you know, my mother thinks so. So all of that. I'm walking into Tom and Jerry's and I see this like cool band and all the MTV people with them. And I'm like— and I do these most insane trip slip with this, like, my boots. I do like a split, like, in front of The Verve. They all freeze. And I like hold this amazing, like, wide-legged stance, get up, and they all applaud me. And that's how I made friends with The Verve.

Damn.

Okay, did Ashcroft—

okay, so you, you ate shit in front of peak Richard Ashcroft at his hottest, and then you were able to pull it together. Yeah, he was at his hottest at that point.

Yes.

Well, we were, we were at the show because we went to London to see them open for Oasis, and we literally saw a woman in front of us Googling his age while he was playing because she couldn't believe how good he looked. Like, we were looking at her screen and I was like, this is— that's how good this guy looks. I can't— fuck me, it's unbelievable.

I mean, mainly beyond looks, very charismatic, you know, he's got it then.

I know, absolutely. But I think it's like some of those guys, I just think there's some people that no matter how much they party, they're just touched by God and it sort of works out for them as the physical, in the physical sense at least, or at least they don't hurt.

Yeah, he has that old like British rocker situation, like whatever it is like that stayed like started in like the Zeppelin years, like some kind of, but it's also an attraction that has, or attractiveness that was kind of locked in by some of the, that legacy artist stuff, these people who look haggard but it's sexy and it's da da da blah blah.

I, I love nothing more than a haggard man personally, as long as—

oh my God, amazing—

as long as, you know, as long as they've come by it honestly.

Okay, well, let's, let's get into Evan Dando then.

Oh no, no, no, no, actually, now we're really digressing into— well, unless this is interesting topics for you, I don't want to be—

Evan Dando is a long time How Long Gone subject because I'm a huge Lemonheads guy.

Oh great.

I've also been told by several people in his orbit and my orbit to never have him on this show because it will ruin anything that I think about him. I mean, so I've— Evan is a sweetheart, but yeah, I saw him play once and I was like, you know what, this is bad, I'm never gonna see it again, I'm gonna just let it go and we're gonna be fine with that. And I think that was— I felt brave for doing that. Yeah, I felt strong for being able to resist.

Well, a big part of this book, which is not about Evan at all, he didn't even make the cut, although there's maybe like a descriptive line of a guy like him, is that I am trying to reframe a very misunderstood wild witch named Courtney Love. And a big part of the issue in the demonizing and the burning of the stake of Courtney, other than just general misogyny, is people's lack of understanding around mental illness and addiction. So there's a lot of that in this book. I am a daughter of an addict. I am a not really well-adjusted human being who has been around more drug addicts and defined by more drug drug addicts and other people's darkness than most people, and I am an authority on this subject. And so my love of Evan is that I, I love Evan. He is deeply, deeply emotionally, mentally unwell, you know. He is a real drug addict with real mental instability.

Absolutely. But do you think— do you— I guess, do you think that— because this is something I've tried to— I'm, I've been sober for like 10 years, so I, I've tried to under— understand this myself, but why are all of my favorites so fucked up? Why is that what I'm— I mean, obviously a lot of us feel that way, but I am particularly attracted and romanticized that.

Dando, Lil Spaceman 3, you know?

Yeah, like, I, I think all of that stuff is so cool, and I, I don't— I, I know, I know now that— I know that it's not, it's not someone's choice, but like, it seems like you had— but I mean, like, you had to be be fucked. Like, I can't think of anyone that I love musically that wasn't fucked up during their most prime years. And I don't— that's a problem in a lot of ways.

That's why you don't know my, my music, because I just support fucked up people. But Billy— no, but it's like, I, I, I am an anti-romanticized self-destruction person, even though my father was truly one of the most remarkable human beings on the planet. And he— but he, he drank and smoked himself to death. That's what happened. Some— those people it's— is if I don't romanticize it, but what I do know because of my depth of love and engagement in family and music— never in love. I never fell in love with an addict. I never had a love affair with an addict. I've only had it in family and music. And when you're in a band, it's the same thing. It's like a family dynamic, and you're in that thing where you're, you know, you're the enabler or you're the enemy. You're one or the other. You're either like telling the person you're fucked up or you're just letting them be fucked up. And I'm in a constant constant battle of which side I'm going to be on. And I have like, there's not a part of me that finds it cool, romantic. It's more that I love all people. I love complex people. I have deep, deep love and compassion for anyone, and especially ones who are deeply torn inside and struggle to exist but still manage to live. And yes, sometimes they have to do drugs to get themselves through the day. I have compassion for this. I had— I have also worked really hard in my life to understand that in people.

But this, this is what kept you away from it, or in any real way?

Oh, I'm a psychedelics person. I, I know. I— so in my book, my mother, you asked me, what did she find out? I took acid when I was 13. So this is like— my journey has been in the expansive spiritual nature of psychedelia. And I don't abuse anything because I'm not an addict. I even like taking drags of cigarettes, but I don't buy cigarettes. I like a— I dabble, but I never opioids.

Yeah, it must be nice. Yeah, it sounds great.

Yeah, I don't do coke, but I rarely buy it.

I take acid 3 times a year to expand my mind. How about give me—

okay, so, okay, so acid at 13. Are we licking frogs current day?

I have not done that one.

Okay.

Although for my 50th birthday, I did do a big, uh, ayahuasca journey specifically to open this book. But that's only one I've only ever done. It's very careful careful. Just like I believe in magic, dreams, mediums, I do it very selectively and intentionally, and when I need to open something up. I don't abuse or use anything regularly.

Okay.

And maybe I'm using the wrong term here, but do you think the ayahuasca quote unquote worked for the purpose that you were looking for?

Yes. And I'll tell you, the moment I came out of it, the first thing I thought was, that should be illegal and most people should not do that. But it worked really well for me.

Y'all don't do—

don't do what I do, do as I say.

I am exception. Most people should not do this. This is insane.

Yeah, most people should not do this.

Where did you do it and what did your shaman look like?

Oh my God, I've never even talked about this publicly. I shouldn't even— I've never— you're the first people I'm even saying.

Who cares?

Well, I— the only reason I'm giving it is because we are talking about drugs and addiction and your sober 10 years. This is all important stuff, is that some people need gate gateways at moments. And, and I very— I'm not going to tell you the whole story, but it was a curated, intimate time.

I know it was— I just mean, what country were you in?

Canada.

Hold on, you're in—

you're crystal clear Canada?

I was in fucking outer Ontario just doing my ayahuasca. I was throwing up everywhere.

Glacial mountains, Rocky Mountains, uh, British Columbia.

Oh, okay.

Were you Bamf? Oh, not Bamf.

Okay, not far from there, but basically a very hidden, like, hideaway of, like, uh, New Age freedom.

Okay, you were on—

you were on some bullshit. I tell you what, I, I'm—

I like it.

I love this.

I love it.

Maybe I'm going into this because I want you to challenge me and I want you to tell— I want you to know it works for me. It works fucking love.

I think, like, all things, I really believe this to be true, that if you want it to work, that it does. I think that—

I think that is And also, if you want to be happy, you can be. It's like really quite— I mean, I understand that some people— there are clinical—

no, I agree with you. I agree with you. I think you— I said this before— I think you like wake up every day and choose how you want to feel to some extent. Obviously there's going to be outside factors. Yeah.

Perception. Perception is key. And what's actually interesting about psychedelics is most of it has to do with altered perception. And a big part of getting through the day is seeing your day through a certain lens of gratitude. Hey, wow, I'm alive. And I— but also, side note, I do like people, even fucked up people. I find them inspiring and interesting. I am very compassionate. I understand if someone's a fucking psycho, they probably weren't loved very well, or they were abused, or something happened in there. So I'm always looking at the many layers is I'm so glad I don't look at the world in a one-dimensional frame or else life would, you know, then actually recently I was having a debate about this and I very courageously, I really am not afraid to die. I'm actually like seeing that like turning other side of 50 is me just like walking gracefully to my death. And someone said, but well, you're not afraid to die. I said, no, how? It would ruin my life if I was afraid to die. And I would like, I literally have to live this life.

All right, your third eye is fucking wide open. Your shit is— your shit is open.

Whereas I don't have time. I'm too busy hustling and setting up my classes. I don't have time to worry about Diane.

Yeah, hustle. Yeah, hustle. Do you know, um, oh my God, there's that song, Everyone Hustle Hustle Hustle.

Yes, Rick Ross.

Yes, Every Day I'm Hustling by Rick Ross.

I truly have considered, because Jen, who's only reading my book now because she's doing my Q&A with me in my hometown for my— for the book book, ever. Even the good girls will cry. If anybody listening knows why we're here, I have a book. Jen is interviewing me, she's reading it, and she's like, yeah, your new age shit is all in there, but you were hustling. And I'm like, yes, actually, I always have been busting my fucking ass and connecting the dots. I met this person, I'm gonna write a letter, I'm gonna get this to happen. Like, I make shit happen without— I'm not sitting meditating, I'm making it happen. Like, today with you, right now. And, and the hustling song I want to have is my walkout piece for my—

okay, that'd be a real Now I know what's— I was gonna, I was gonna play one of your solo songs at the end of the episode, maybe a whole song, a little Malibu, a little Violet. But no, no, we're gonna play Rick Ross's Hustlin' and I'll find a nice trap remix of it.

I literally had it because I have a DJ set that I bring around to, uh, like my art center. I do the after party, dark wave. It's mainly Depeche Mode, Sisters of Mercy. I sometimes throw in a bit of Bo Burnham. I have like a rave, but that song I put in, but it was like comedian? Yes, I'm in love with him actually.

I think Sisters of Mercy into the Bo Burnham.

I'm not ready. Bo Burnham makes music? I thought he was an actor.

Oh my God, you have not listened to his album.

No, I'm good.

That came with— so, you know, you are licking the toads special he made, that inside this TV special he made during COVID No, no, I saw—

I remember that.

I remember this is one of the weirdest things ever said on this podcast. I have to say, Sisters of Mercy—

did you get that shit on Vinyl?

I did double box set on vinyl.

You got doubles so you could cut it? That's—

oh my God. And then, guys, you know this, I live in, I live in quaint, cute upstate, right? I'm— love Bo Burnham. I have the double box set vinyl. Bo Burnham and Phoebe Bridgers are walking down the street of Hudson like 9 months ago. I do a U-turn in my I get out and I walk up to them. He's like a shy weirdo. She probably is the one usually being approached. I'm like, "Mm-hmm." "I— what are you doing in Hudson? I'm a huge fan." He's very awkward. I'm like, "I have an art center here. I would love for you to play." He's like, "I don't really tour anymore." I'm like, "I know, I know. I saw your special. I know you're afraid of touring, but if you want to perform, you should—" He totally like nice, but walks away. A week later, 'cause I guess they're looking for houses here, who knows, he walks into this restaurant. I like, I'm like, it's me, remember me? He's so afraid of me. And do you know what I say? I bought your vinyl.

You're the worst.

That's so— okay, next time, this is what I would have led with, you know, if I see some fucking cat lady running at me with my double vinyl. This is what you lead with: hey bitch, I was in Hole and Smashing Pumpkins.

And they go, oh yeah, okay, never mind. Start— you got to start with that.

I know, I don't know how to do that. I don't do that very well.

I appreciate that about you, and I think it's the right way way to do, do that.

But in some certain instances, it's a hard thing to do. In certain situations, you have to identify yourself, otherwise people will be like, oh, here's another fan that's going to ruin my day.

It is cool though. I, I bet that the amount of times that people approach those two and they're there for Bo and not Phoebe is— you're one in a million. And that is— that's also— that makes you special.

He's so cool. He— but so on his album, when you go to your iTunes, you might as well play this. So we're gonna play Rick Ross and Biden. Go! And Jeff Bezos, he has B-sides that are these outtakes that are dance songs that I literally play on my dance. And one of it, they're really going to make me vote for Joe Biden. It's like the most absurd, incredible commentary on modern life in 2022 when he made it.

Okay, I, I can't— I'm never trying to think about 2022 again, but I guess that actually it was 2020.

Is that the Was it a horrible election? No, I don't, I don't.

They're all bad.

But anyway, I could have used AI technology to figure out what music would be the most upstate New York arts and cultural center DJ set playlist to be. And 1,000 of our greatest minds would never choose the Joe Biden song from the Bo Burnham COVID special to be in the mix. Okay. Breathtaking stuff. I thought you were going to play like Tool remixes that are like drum and bass, but no, no, no.

What's up with this photo? But what's What's up with the photo book? Who's putting it out?

I don't know what you know about me now because you didn't— did you read on Wikipedia that I started as a photographer? I went to— I did know that about you. So, and I was, you know, I said no to joining Hole when I was invited because I wanted to go do my master's in photography at RISD. Okay, so in my mind, I'm a fine arts photographer who got hijacked, and that's all cool. But I I took a roll of film a day on tour. I have 15,000 negatives. I took a photo of every single— So the issue, so, you know, again, it's kind of like the book. I have to purge it. I have to purge it. Otherwise it's just sitting, collecting dust. So Delmonico DAP, they're a big art publisher, but it's coming hand in hand with a museum exhibit. So the exhibit opens in Toronto at this beautiful big museum called the AGO. It will tour. Places. So what's exciting is I'll get to tour internationally with the exhibit. And, um, the book is a companion piece to the memoir in that it's the visual version of my obsessive chronicling of like, I'm going to tell you everything that ever happened in my life in the '90s.

And none of these pictures have been seen before.

That's right, because it's a hit. It's a time capsule, a little bit like my stories where I just sort of like, ugh, get it away. I just put it away and then it was like burning a hole in like my— I gotta like do something with it. And so I've been for the last 5 years scanning, archiving, databasing. Now you can go to like a computer program and be like, hotel room, Courtney's butt, um, Marilyn Manson. Like you can get every single category that could have been in my— like so many. So they're called search words. Yes. Is that what a cue code—

it's whatever they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you're saying everything is cataloged?

As long as it's not Marilyn Manson's butt, I'm happy. Yeah, that's fair.

There's a lot of butts I'd want to see from of your era, but Maryland's is not top, top.

But yeah, so I did all the work on it, and then through scanning and categorizing and coming up with— clearly, like, I have a few recurring perspectives, which is the state. Like, so the audience is like my— one of my number one muses. Photographing the fans is like— there's a whole section of the book in the exhibit that's an ode to the fans. Like, just that undivided attention.

Because you played some— you played some fucked up big shows.

Oh yeah, between Hole and the Pumpkins. I mean, like festivals in Europe in the '90s, like as big as it gets. This is my first show with Hole in front of 65,000 people. Uh, I have played 6 concerts in my life at this moment. I am through the looking glass, joined a giant army's band, and my 7th concert on the bass guitar is in front of that audience, which is an ocean.

Yes. Okay, did you know the songs? Like, how well would you say you the songs.

I, I listened to the Live Through This album on the flight on my way to meet them, where I had already like told them I don't know if I'm interested. I listened to them and then all of a sudden this, like, it was like a magic wand. Something crazy happened where basically I understood, fuck it, fine, I need to join. These people need me. This is my destiny. This is beyond music. This poor woman and her daughter and this cool drummer. They have nobody. They have nobody. They have— so I joined because— and I, and I had 4 days to rehearse, and I didn't make one mistake. So some people who interview me about music talk to me about bass playing.

I'll ask Courtney. Let me ask Courtney if you made a mistake or not.

You know what I mean?

I don't— she doesn't remember.

Well, I know that— I know that you have— I know that you have a background in, in music. You grew up playing music your whole life. Yeah. You've also said that playing bass is sort of known as the easiest instrument on stage. Yeah. So you, you know, with your, your musical genius mixed in with the ease of bass playing, you're able to pick it up on a, on a correct Southwest flight out of Toronto. No problemo. It was Montreal Air Canada.

And you are the researched one. Yes.

Just a wee bit. Just a wee bit.

That's, that, that's a lot of people. That's a lot of people to play for. But you were, were you nervous or not even nervous? No, not even.

No, it's actually harder to play in front of 20 people.

That kind of makes sense, actually. Yeah, that makes sense.

It's actually easier that way. The moment I got out there, I realized this isn't real. This is insane. They can't even see if I'm sweating. Like, I can't even see their— it's such a— and apparently there's a section in here, like, someone quoted it back to me the other day, is I use that as an analogy of what fame is. It's like exposed yet not at all personal. It's like this distanced— it's those size, that scale. Yeah, you're protected.

It's almost like they can't hurt you even though they technically can. And when you're in a crowd with 20 people, when the guy yells, show me your tits, you're looking right at it. And at a giant festival in Budapest, it's not like a real person.

Exactly. So, yeah, it was easy for me to enter that realm. But then also between— I grew up in the public eye on a small scale, but I was on the campaign trails, on my father's TV show in radio show. My father was larger than life and a remarkably charismatic, wild human. So I was groomed, like, I really—

well, we don't use that word. We don't use that word.

We shouldn't have said primed, whatever. You were marinated. I was— it was very easy for me, put it that way. Yeah, that's just like being in the moment.

I think that— so what's up, you— but you, most of— I guess a lot of these people, do you still have relationships with them, or at least it's cool? Yeah, you've managed to keep in touch.

Oh my God, no, no, I'm closer to Billy and Courtney now than I was them. I was just in LA last week doing— last month doing his podcast, having tea with her. We truly— this is the where the fun stuff actually starts. The fact that she's not dead, she's alive, which is a miracle. The fact that she's making a new record in her 60s, the fact that I sang on it and we get along and I'm rooting for her and she's rooting for me.

Rumors are saying that it's good. All my sources are telling me it's good.

It is good. I went out of love of our, like, our history. No matter what.

But then you're like, it's good.

Truly, I'm so excited for her. It's amazing.

I mean, we're all excited. I think there's certain people, for whatever reason, if they stick around this long, I think culture at large wants them to win. You know what I mean? You want to see it work out.

If they can live through this, literally, she better win because she should be dead. Like, and I— she's having her moment for sure, and I'm so excited for you know, does that ever put the peace inside of her? No, but she will at least be showered with love, not like literally shotgun shells that they used to throw on stage.

So you guys having— you guys having a relation or a relationship warms my heart, honestly, because it feels like that's like— that feels impossible, I think, when you're looking from the outside or you know any of the history.

Yeah, and that's a huge part of the book is that no one can put our relationship as a symbol of like highest frequency of woman relationships with each other, which could have gone terribly wrong so many— and we didn't speak for 15 years, so it actually— it did go wrong for a bit. And had she died in that time, I remember the whole time thinking, if she dies, I'm gonna have lots of unresolved shit. She better not die while I'm not talking to her.

I have so much to yell at her before she goes.

Well, yeah, you can't die. I got a bone to pick.

Where We're, we're in the, the time where everyone's cashing in on the reunion shows. Obviously, I'm sure you've had a couple offers over the years or heard some rumblings. Have we gotten any closer to a whole reunion show? Have, have there been any offers that have— I know you don't do it for the money, but you know, good memory there.

Um, is, uh, the answer is genuine. I know that she said a bunch of stuff on the internet this week. Um, but if It is, especially for two people like me and her. She's like a wild card. I am careful. There is no playing.

You're a card, she's a wild card. How would I— how would you describe yourself?

Careful. Just careful. I'm a careful gal at the end of the day.

I'm sensitive. I don't even know what the word— I am not— I don't know what I am, but I'm not a wild card, actually.

No, you don't strike me as such.

Is— I, I I honestly can tell you it's an unknown. Just like, when does love strike? When does magic light? It's an unknown. I, I— and it's— it could happen, but it's not planned, that is for sure.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that like part of me is so impressed by the resistance, uh, because it's so cool, but the other part of me is I think, I think people should be able to sort of— and, and once again, we know it's not about the money money, but there's like a level of me that thinks you deserve it, you know what I mean? Because you, you did it, and it's like now there's more people that would appreciate— you know, it's a different time. People would pay whatever.

I mean, there's no question, ahead of time women here—

the music still holds up just as well, you know?

Yeah.

And one of my classic record is a classic record.

Classic record. I thought you said Akashic Records. I don't know if you know that, but that's another trip topic. But, um, so some of your listeners might know, but I'm going to tell you, one of the most proud moments that have happened in the last year is bringing my teenage daughter, who has found her way through the of music through her own search. The Billie Eilishes and the Olivia Rodrigo amazingness and all the powerful, talented women out there making music. And, uh, I got to bring her to meet some of these girls, and Olivia Rodrigo said to her, to my daughter, without your mother we wouldn't have this. And I was like, okay, finally, finally I don't have to explain to my daughter that we did work really hard.

And that— no, seriously, this shit was cool.

I'm not— I'm serious. Mary tried. She does not— like, she's not interested. But Olivia Rodrigo said that during like little pin drops.

Olivia, Olivia Rodrigo, from all accounts, also has amazing taste in a way. That whole story about her bringing the breeders and like how, you know, the whole, the whole story behind that was so great.

Yeah, she's also— well, she's surrounded. You can tell she's like a level head. She's— when management and producers are together, they're guiding her well too, of like, yeah, show, you know. So yes, wait a second, I know you have to go and I have to go. What did we not talk about other than all of it?

Well, I had one more question on the subject of Olivia Rodrigo and Billie Eilish. Okay. When I was doing some research a couple years ago, you said rock music saved lives, pop music is fun but it does not save lives. Do you still believe that?

Well, oh, it's such a long thing. I mean, the main thing is, do I think that Billie Eilish is definitely saving girls' spirits in bedrooms? Yes. Like, music has the power to save everybody and anyone. Classical music— music saves lives. I have a personal love and need for rock music as a visceral explosion of things that are scary, things that are complicated, things that, you know, pain is in rock music and torture is in rock music. And I'm not I'm not saying that you can't also write a poetic story about a tortured thing, but for me, the lack of visceral rock music that has happened in the last decade or two makes me sad for people who could really use it. Like, that kind of, like, anger, like, that rage that Courtney gave people, and that Kurt, of course, gave people, that is something that people need. And look at us now. We need to, like, scream our heads off. I have my own way of working through pain and rage, age, but some people really need that visceral thing. And I do find the packaged glossy poppy everything is not helping people tap into their dark side because otherwise dark sides are going to be hidden over here and then it's going to come out in shadows. What are you talking about?

We have dark sides now. Machine Gun Kelly is super dark. Oh, yeah, that's true. We can't discount. No, there is.

Well, sorry, there was plenty of dark sides. I guess I mean through analog, just like tradition. Of like whatever Sabbath was doing. I don't know. I think that all music can save lives and all arts can too. Books, maybe paintings, movies, all that. But there's this particular frequency in what rock music can do for those playing and those receiving it. And I am an ambassador of that special magic.

Yes. I think that type of hard, angry We love it. Music exists in the underground and it's bigger than ever, but we don't have it in the forefront the way we did in the '90s with Metallica and Rage Against the Machine and all these bands that were truly raging and truly the biggest acts of all time.

Exactly. Yeah, we lost that. That was too scary. We just need to have raging tech guys now. That do it instead. Like, I find that so sad that, like, the mainstream— I agree.

I think of Sam Altman as our Rage Against the Machine, kind of.

So now that we got Green Day playing the Super Bowl, you know, with a lesbian wig on, you know, a lot has changed and things need to—

Is it— what is he wearing?

Wig? Okay, it's not a wig, it's his real hair, but it does look like Ellen.

Yeah, Metallica is playing at the Sphere, you know, like, the world Tool makes sense from a visual.

You're probably gonna do it. We don't talk— we're banned. We banned Tool talk on this podcast.

I'm a Tool— I'm a Tool head, bro.

Awful band. All right, Melissa, thank you for joining us.

That was— thank you.

The book is out the 17th. I will buy my copy proudly, um, at an independent bookseller.

Thank you.

I will listen to it on Spotify to make sure they get a nickel.

And you'll see, because I won't be able to listen to it again because there's parts of that book I could read without crying, and I could not— like, I just could not get it done without. And the engineers, who were crying too, said, well, we'll just keep it.

Oh yeah, you got to keep it. That's what people want. That's why I can never listen to an audiobook. Um, I don't want to start crying. Yeah. Um, all right, well, thank you for joining us. Thank you.

Our pleasure.

I loved it. Come upstate.

Yeah, we'll come by.

I will. I'll eventually be forced to do that. I'll see you later.

All the stars explode tonight. How'd you get so desperate? How'd you stay alive?